[brains.memory]
May. 3rd, 2005 02:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wispfoxOk, I finally got sparked into trying to write some noodlings about how my brain appears to work in terms of memory. I make no claims for organization or how much sense this will make, as it's still percolating through my conscious brain.
My memory appears to be at least partially a conscious thing.
I say this because I have to be paying enough of a certain type of attention, or memories either won't form or will be very, very hazy. This is especially true if the vast majority of the input I'm getting is tactile and overwhelming to the point where the verbal part of my brain is mostly turned off. (This may be because, if I'm comfortable enough to really enjoy tactile stimulation, I'm not paying as much - if any - attention to memory formation. Things that require thought - at least in terms of thought-as-active-awareness, rather than thought-as-words - distract me from tactile stimulation enjoyment. I think the fact that 'awareness' usually goes along with 'verbal' is just a side-effect of the fact that being verbal is at least partly a conscious thing for me, and not really relating as strongly to memory formation. I think the highly verbal part of my memory is when I sort/process stuff, not so much when I store for later sorting/processing.)
This is also true if I'm very, very tired, because my mind wanders too much and I don't have enough attention for particularly coherent memory formation. It's generally tended to be true that sufficient exhaustion results in really _strange_ memory sets, depending on what managed to catch my attention. It's especially likely for me to remember things if I notice them strongly enough to comment on them, and even more so if other people comment or react to my comments.
The apparent need for conscious attention in order to remember things appears to possibly relate to the fact that I have very few and very unrelated memories of my childhood, with a sharp increase in memories a few years after I started school (note: I started going to school part-time in 4th grade - age 8 - and don't really have very useful memories until a year or so before high school - age 11-ish). I believe this relates because I suspect that going to school caused me to realize that I needed to be able to have access to information contained in my experiences, so I started working on a way to store and be able to access such information.
I suspect that this method of memory storage/access may be part of why I am very, very, very poor at forming (or perhaps accessing) memories of things that I do not understand, probably because I have major trouble handling things that I do not understand and much of my processing power and attention goes toward understanding rather than memories or interactions. (Not answering and understanding the answer for a 'why' question about something nearly always means I won't remember it. I do _not_ have a trivia oriented memory, and things which require spatial awareness are highly unlikely to be retained, even if I manage a glimpse of understanding)
Similarly, overwhelming situations - both pleasant ones and not pleasant ones - tend to be things I have trouble remembering, presumably because my brain is stuck on trying to process what's going on, and not putting enough effort toward memory storage. I suspect that this is also why overwhelming things tend to result in major difficulty with coping; my brain is stuck on the situation and can't get enough of a grasp to _do_ anything.
Pleasant/safe overwhelming situations, though, I don't _try_ to process everything going on, so I can correctly interpret/understand urgent interrupt-type signals (and speak up about them), and I can make use of any automatic-type interactions that I've developed (since pleasant/safe overwhelmed tends to only happen in tactile-bases interactions, so automatic behaviors can reasonably exist and be used).
With unpleasant/unsafe overwhelming situations, though, I can't identify what's important to pay attention to _right now_ and what isn't, and part of the reason for the distress in this case is because I don't _have_ much (if any) automatic stuff set up for it, probably due to insufficient familiarity with the situation. The unpleasant/unsafe-type situation, depending on how extreme, is the most likely situation in which I will freeze and/or panic. Being just unpleasant or unsafe-feeling makes me less likely to panic, although I still might not be able to process enough to _do_ anything.
I wonder if this relates to my difficulty with arguments? I get unpleasantly overwhelmed by the excessive amount of spoken words that I have to do a lot of processing on, _and_ I feel unsafe.
This type of memory storage is probably also why I will need time to process after unusual experiences, so that I can index the memories and make them usefully available. I appear to store things as best I can on a temporary basis, while experiencing things, and as that temporary storage gets full, I am more and more needing time to chill out and process the information. I suspect the 'put things into a place where I can later process them' state is the part needing some amount of conscious awareness of that as being important, and the processing is the highly verbal part. So being less aware makes this more difficult, and amounts of awareness affects if a memory is captured at all, or if it's hazy, or if it's reasonably clear.
I suspect that my need for a certain amount of attention available for memory formation is why I have learned to refuse to make decisions if I'm tired, drugged, overwhelmed, or distracted. I don't _like_ having hazy - or no - memories of a decision I've made. And I'm probably not up to making clear decisions in this kind of mental state, anyway.
I suspect this is also why I am poor at remembering the first time I meet a person, or really remembering anything about a person until I have at least some idea of them, as there is nowhere for that information to be stored in my short term 'remember for later processing' storage. (I think I do a very small amount of processing when I store for later processing, in that I flag things as relating to other things already in my head)
I also suspect that this need for active awareness to form memories is why I'm so much more cautious about who I am willing to have sexual interactions requiring a safer sex conversation with, as compared to who I make out with. As mentioned above, really enjoying tactile interaction of any sort means I'm fairly relaxed, and my attention is on the interaction, not so much on memory formation. This is true for all such interaction, but cuddling takes less attention than making out than genital contact than bare skin genital contact (presumably determined by how much of my physical-self awareness they require, as that is _not_ a default awareness for me. Remember, I run into things regularly. ;).
So, sexual behaviors involving my bare genitals - which will require a safer sex conversation - will probably result in extremely hazy memories no matter _what_ my mental state otherwise would be, simply as a side-effect of being both tactile-based and overwhelming (pleasantly, mind!). Thus, they require _major_ trust and certainty of a person, their interactions with me, and our mutual ability to read each other, as I am likely both not forming very good memories (if any at all), and mostly non-verbal (unless I get an urgent interrupt which I need to address, probably verbally). Since I tend to lose a sense of people without sufficient interaction, they also require regular sufficient interaction with a person.
I suspect that the above-mentioned trouble with memory formation is actually a case of not being able to index the memories well, because people can generally - although not always - reference things and have me remember them. This doesn't, however, mean I can access memories thusly references on my own at a later time, for some reason.
I _can_ stay aware enough when involved in an overwhelming sensation-based interaction such that memories are formed, and I can get verbal/fully alert if I need to, but doing so causes a significant reduction in my enjoyment of whatever's going on. I wonder if this is why I am so much less satisfied by masturbation - because I have to pay a lot more attention to what's going on?
Ok, I'm done. There was more, but it feels not even vaguely related to what's here right now.
My memory = strange. Yes. :)
My memory appears to be at least partially a conscious thing.
I say this because I have to be paying enough of a certain type of attention, or memories either won't form or will be very, very hazy. This is especially true if the vast majority of the input I'm getting is tactile and overwhelming to the point where the verbal part of my brain is mostly turned off. (This may be because, if I'm comfortable enough to really enjoy tactile stimulation, I'm not paying as much - if any - attention to memory formation. Things that require thought - at least in terms of thought-as-active-awareness, rather than thought-as-words - distract me from tactile stimulation enjoyment. I think the fact that 'awareness' usually goes along with 'verbal' is just a side-effect of the fact that being verbal is at least partly a conscious thing for me, and not really relating as strongly to memory formation. I think the highly verbal part of my memory is when I sort/process stuff, not so much when I store for later sorting/processing.)
This is also true if I'm very, very tired, because my mind wanders too much and I don't have enough attention for particularly coherent memory formation. It's generally tended to be true that sufficient exhaustion results in really _strange_ memory sets, depending on what managed to catch my attention. It's especially likely for me to remember things if I notice them strongly enough to comment on them, and even more so if other people comment or react to my comments.
The apparent need for conscious attention in order to remember things appears to possibly relate to the fact that I have very few and very unrelated memories of my childhood, with a sharp increase in memories a few years after I started school (note: I started going to school part-time in 4th grade - age 8 - and don't really have very useful memories until a year or so before high school - age 11-ish). I believe this relates because I suspect that going to school caused me to realize that I needed to be able to have access to information contained in my experiences, so I started working on a way to store and be able to access such information.
I suspect that this method of memory storage/access may be part of why I am very, very, very poor at forming (or perhaps accessing) memories of things that I do not understand, probably because I have major trouble handling things that I do not understand and much of my processing power and attention goes toward understanding rather than memories or interactions. (Not answering and understanding the answer for a 'why' question about something nearly always means I won't remember it. I do _not_ have a trivia oriented memory, and things which require spatial awareness are highly unlikely to be retained, even if I manage a glimpse of understanding)
Similarly, overwhelming situations - both pleasant ones and not pleasant ones - tend to be things I have trouble remembering, presumably because my brain is stuck on trying to process what's going on, and not putting enough effort toward memory storage. I suspect that this is also why overwhelming things tend to result in major difficulty with coping; my brain is stuck on the situation and can't get enough of a grasp to _do_ anything.
Pleasant/safe overwhelming situations, though, I don't _try_ to process everything going on, so I can correctly interpret/understand urgent interrupt-type signals (and speak up about them), and I can make use of any automatic-type interactions that I've developed (since pleasant/safe overwhelmed tends to only happen in tactile-bases interactions, so automatic behaviors can reasonably exist and be used).
With unpleasant/unsafe overwhelming situations, though, I can't identify what's important to pay attention to _right now_ and what isn't, and part of the reason for the distress in this case is because I don't _have_ much (if any) automatic stuff set up for it, probably due to insufficient familiarity with the situation. The unpleasant/unsafe-type situation, depending on how extreme, is the most likely situation in which I will freeze and/or panic. Being just unpleasant or unsafe-feeling makes me less likely to panic, although I still might not be able to process enough to _do_ anything.
I wonder if this relates to my difficulty with arguments? I get unpleasantly overwhelmed by the excessive amount of spoken words that I have to do a lot of processing on, _and_ I feel unsafe.
This type of memory storage is probably also why I will need time to process after unusual experiences, so that I can index the memories and make them usefully available. I appear to store things as best I can on a temporary basis, while experiencing things, and as that temporary storage gets full, I am more and more needing time to chill out and process the information. I suspect the 'put things into a place where I can later process them' state is the part needing some amount of conscious awareness of that as being important, and the processing is the highly verbal part. So being less aware makes this more difficult, and amounts of awareness affects if a memory is captured at all, or if it's hazy, or if it's reasonably clear.
I suspect that my need for a certain amount of attention available for memory formation is why I have learned to refuse to make decisions if I'm tired, drugged, overwhelmed, or distracted. I don't _like_ having hazy - or no - memories of a decision I've made. And I'm probably not up to making clear decisions in this kind of mental state, anyway.
I suspect this is also why I am poor at remembering the first time I meet a person, or really remembering anything about a person until I have at least some idea of them, as there is nowhere for that information to be stored in my short term 'remember for later processing' storage. (I think I do a very small amount of processing when I store for later processing, in that I flag things as relating to other things already in my head)
I also suspect that this need for active awareness to form memories is why I'm so much more cautious about who I am willing to have sexual interactions requiring a safer sex conversation with, as compared to who I make out with. As mentioned above, really enjoying tactile interaction of any sort means I'm fairly relaxed, and my attention is on the interaction, not so much on memory formation. This is true for all such interaction, but cuddling takes less attention than making out than genital contact than bare skin genital contact (presumably determined by how much of my physical-self awareness they require, as that is _not_ a default awareness for me. Remember, I run into things regularly. ;).
So, sexual behaviors involving my bare genitals - which will require a safer sex conversation - will probably result in extremely hazy memories no matter _what_ my mental state otherwise would be, simply as a side-effect of being both tactile-based and overwhelming (pleasantly, mind!). Thus, they require _major_ trust and certainty of a person, their interactions with me, and our mutual ability to read each other, as I am likely both not forming very good memories (if any at all), and mostly non-verbal (unless I get an urgent interrupt which I need to address, probably verbally). Since I tend to lose a sense of people without sufficient interaction, they also require regular sufficient interaction with a person.
I suspect that the above-mentioned trouble with memory formation is actually a case of not being able to index the memories well, because people can generally - although not always - reference things and have me remember them. This doesn't, however, mean I can access memories thusly references on my own at a later time, for some reason.
I _can_ stay aware enough when involved in an overwhelming sensation-based interaction such that memories are formed, and I can get verbal/fully alert if I need to, but doing so causes a significant reduction in my enjoyment of whatever's going on. I wonder if this is why I am so much less satisfied by masturbation - because I have to pay a lot more attention to what's going on?
Ok, I'm done. There was more, but it feels not even vaguely related to what's here right now.
My memory = strange. Yes. :)
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no subject
Date: 2005-05-03 09:12 pm (UTC)By which I mean, yes, all of that. All. So I guess it doesn't seem all that weird to me, since I live with it every day. *)
no subject
Date: 2005-05-03 09:21 pm (UTC)This one shocks the hell out of me. :)
I mean, that was a _lot_ of detail, so getting an absolute 'me, too'? Damn.
Hi! You just managed a type of surprise that I do not often get. That was a way in which I generally feel alien which I had _no_ reason to expect anyone else would also have experienced. I'm kinda wanting to thank you, except that my type of memory isn't really something I would have wished on anyone else. Ah, well.
no subject
Date: 2005-05-03 09:43 pm (UTC)No, I wouldn't wish that part of it on anyone.
On the other hand, it's easy to forgive and forget. I'm one of the most forgiving people I know, because after a couple of weeks I generally forget that I was hurting because I can't remember why, and it's silly to hold on to anger when I'm not in pain. Not remembering Joe clearly had its disadvantages during visits because I'd have to explain to myself who he was all over again, but in between I didn't have to deal with the painful kind of missing him because I literally didn't know what I was missing. I forget to be depressed or disappointed or frustrated or confused. The next time trying is always the first time trying, and I don't get progressively fed up. Every time a lover brings me pleasure, it's got a little bit of extra magic to it, because I'd forgotten it could be so good. It's kind of like enforced Zen. And that part, I really don't mind so much.
I watched my grandfather's memory fade as he aged, and learned a lot about handling it with grace and style. When I cut my hair and he didn't recognize me, he still called me "darling" and treated me with the same kindness and warmth he offered to everyone, and he had a lovely smile that meant "I've forgotten, and you know I have, and I'm pretending to remember, and you know I am, but it's fun to play the game and see how long we can keep going with it". Every time we visited, it had been "ages", but there was no resentment; he was surprised and delighted to see us. As we left, we would write a note on the whiteboard so that the next day the nurse could say "Hey, the kids visited yesterday and you went out and played a few rounds of golf with them!" and he might not remember but he would enjoy knowing that it had happened and made him and us happy. There are times when having a poor memory utterly sucks, but there are ways to make it work for you too, and when those run out, there are ways to be happy with what you get and not worry too much about what you're missing.
no subject
Date: 2005-05-04 02:46 pm (UTC)... or something I read, or something I saw, or a dream, or... I _am_ getting better with these, although it seems that the longer ago something was, the less sure I am that I didn't experience it.
Remembering people... I _do_ remember people, once I have a sense of them, reasonably well. How long I remember them without in-person contact depends on how good a sense I have (seems to be some combination of how much time I've spent with them in-person, how long I've known them, and how comfortable I am with them). I think my difficulty with this is less than your own, but I do know that between Joe's first and second visits to the Boston area, I lost enough of a sense of him that I had to do... something... in my head to not be confused by being in physical contact with him at first.
I think that something changed this last visit such that I do have a good sense of him, and such that the apparent timeout between the first and second visit has increased, and I'm less scared that I'll completely forget who he is (I think that's part of why it was so hard to have him so far away, between first and second visit; I could _feel_ myself losing sense of him).
I still can't decide if it's worse or better to have a partial sense of someone, because that's generally the most common state for me to have people in, and it's a state where I will feel my sense of someone disappearing after a while. It'd be easier to either not have a sense of a person stay after they are gone, or have however much I develop stick around. It's annoying requiring a certain level of a sense of a person in order to keep them in my head for a reasonable amount of time.
I mean, sure - I expect that without any interaction, people will fade, no matter _who_ they are, or how well I know them, or how long I know them. Even family. Because I might have a sense of who someone _was_, but after a while, it's no longer who they _are_, and somewhere I seem to instinctually know that.
I don't really remember faces or voices. But I don't expect to. I _recognize_ voices with relative ease, at least as compared to faces, but that's not the same as being able to call them up in my head with no external simulus.
My memory appears to be something which I can more easily access memories of events than you appear to be able to do, but I do also have really _strange_ things which trigger memories. Including what I was wearing, locations, particular ways of moving/standing, sounds, etc... but those aren't things that I think I created; I think I had those memory triggers before I created my memory index.
But, the fact that I know that I have such a strange memory means that I _expect_ other people to forget things, or not think of things (I do this one a lot; I may _know_ something, but I don't have a good enough understanding of it for the bit of information to necessarily be triggered at a time it would be useful), no matter how important it might seem to me. It's actually far, far more startling for someone to remember things - especially if I know that they didn't really understand them, but simply accepted them - than to forget them.
But, yes. I do sometimes wonder if my memory is why it's so damn hard to make me truly angry.
Yeah. Fascinating. Didn't realize that we both had effectively constructed memory storage. :) It's interesting how different they are (and yet similar), even with that much the same!
no subject
Date: 2005-05-04 05:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-04 05:34 am (UTC)Addendum (now that I'm in a state approaching wakefulness)
Date: 2005-05-04 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-07 08:14 pm (UTC)http://members.aol.com/macvjv/docs/Individuation.htm
"By innate preference you were drawn in childhood to develop your imagination and creativity. Perhaps you created an imaginary playmate, or several, with whom you secretly lived while your parents wondered about your dreamy silence. Only a favorite friend or two, or a wise and gentle parent, was permitted to share your world of make-believe. Teachers frequently had to remind you that you were not paying attention. It is hard for you to remember the details of this period, especially as details did not engage your interest. But you do recall the general atmosphere, whether of happiness, sadness, pain, or pleasure."
http://members.aol.com/macvjv/docs/TertiaryTalk.htm
"INFJs can possess the memory of a sieve when it comes to their personal history. (This is not about memory per se; it's about a frame of reference to the past. Everybody claims to have a bad memory.) I can barely recollect what I did yesterday, much less something I did as a child. When somebody asks, "How have you been?" or "What have you been up to lately?" my mind goes blank, even if I just got married (I did!). My childhood memories are so vague that I once wondered whether I had been harmed as a child, since that is often a symptom of abuse. My ISTJ sister recalls more than me about my own childhood, or related facts. Similarly, I lack interest in genealogy. I attended a family reunion last summer, and I was really impatient with figuring out how I was related to anybody there. When my mother started reciting "begats," I nearly passed out from boredom. I'm more comfortable telling you how I'm *going* to be next week or next month than I am telling you how I was yesterday (really!). Because Si is in the 8th position for INFJs, they can get downright "devilish" when they're asked to reference past events for extended periods of time."
no subject
Date: 2005-05-20 02:08 pm (UTC)To the second... yeah, more or less.